Discussion in 'Wrestling Talk - HS' started by wrassilin fan, Feb 11, 2018.

  1. wrassilin fan

    wrassilin fan Member

    1.Roman Bravo-Young 182-0 Undefeated 4x Az State Champ
    2. Alex Torres 59-0 State Champion Majored D1 Cody Lewis and D2 Nikolas Manuel State Champ and All-American Nevada 4A State Champ Desmond Bowers
    3. Adam Henderson 63-0 3x State Champion, Beat D1 State Champ Kashwan Crump-Valencia
    4. Sal Silva 58-0 State Champion, Beat D3 3x State Champ McKade Finch and D1 State Runner up Tanner Waite
    5. Aaron Gandara 38-2 D1 State Champ, Beat returning State Champ Jacob Garcia
    6. Dawon Andrews 38-0 3x State Champion
    7. Marcus Castillo 41-0 2x State Champion, Beat D1 State Champ Vicente Loaiza
    8. Denen Fernandez 41-3 2x State Champ, Beat 4x State Champ Gator Groves, undefeated in az
    9. Miles Nuessle 44-0 3x State Champ
    10. Tarik Sutkovic 2x State Champ, beat D1 State Champ Jonathan Garcia

    Honorable mention in no order
    Jackson Allen
    Jesse Ybarra
    Manny Garcia
    Vicente Loaiza
    Kashawn Crump-Valencia
    Korben Uhler
    Jeremiah Hollen
    Andrew Torres
    Gator Groves
    Tommy Mommer

    Based off record and quality of wins this past season.
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2018
  2. wm201617

    wm201617 Well-Known Member

    Hey no offense, I agree with many of your choices...but Cmon get real- you cant be ranked top 10 P4P if you didnt at least win your weight class division at state and are the state champ. There is 1 and I repeat 1 finals match that is more important than ANY other match of the year in any other tournament at least in Arizona and that is the AIA state finals match. If you cant win that match you may be a GREAT wrestler but you just cant be considered for pound for pound.
    Most of the litmus test in your above choices is sound logic in that you consider being a 1. Multiple state Champ. 2. BEING the current state champ AND 3. Beating the other divisions champs and or runner ups.
    As such Jackson Allen certainly would meet that criteria more than either Torres boy. I am fine even putting the 1 current state champ Torres if you want on the list but at #2 is almost as ridicoulous as putting the non champ Torres boy on list at all. I prob wouldnt list either boy on a true Pound 4 Pound but if I did definitely not # 2 and the other one at 10 shouldnt be considered.
    I would put Henderson and Nuessle at 2 and 3 Tell me who pound for pound has been more dominate than them in the last 2 years other than RBY.
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2018
    SPRAWL and AZ_wrestlinFan#1 like this.
  3. AZ_wrestlinFan#1

    AZ_wrestlinFan#1 Well-Known Member

    I agree with list except #10. How can you not have Jackson Allen in there? You put the kid that lost to him in the finals. Don’t make no sense. Andrew Torres is a stud, but definitely should be an honorable mention. Not #10. I think Sal Silva should be a little higher. He wrestled almost every dual and won every tournament.... by a lot!!!! All in all this is a good list.
    Scoobysnak likes this.
  4. matman

    matman Member

    And why are the majority of the wrestlers on this list bigger guys? 120?126?113?
    AZ_wrestlinFan#1 likes this.
  5. wm201617

    wm201617 Well-Known Member

    Of course RBY and many others in above list are on it but not all of them should be And seriously how do you leave off a 4 time State champ like ALLEN? I would put ALLEN in the top 5 no matter HOW you slice it regardless of what criteria you use. How can a 4 time state champ not be in the top 5? Anyway it don't matter. Just fun arguing I guess.
  6. whenndoubtchokemout

    whenndoubtchokemout "when in doubt, chokem out"

    No Jackson Allen...WOW! What about Gator Groves, 4x state Champion D-1 and D-2
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2018
    Wrestlers likes this.

    SPRAWL Well-Known Member

    Here's a list of wrestlers with multi State Champion/Runner-up seasons and their records during their Champion/runner up seasons. These would seem to be the most likely candidates for top 10 P4P.

    4 time State Champs:
    Gator Groves of Chandler 195W-6L
    Jackson Allen of Show Low 160W-8L

    3 time State Champions:
    Diego Guerrero of Walden Grove 153W-6L
    McKade Finch of Safford 148W-9L
    Dawon Andrews of Safford 140W-1L
    Adam Henderson of Blue Ridge 172W-3L *NHSCA ALL-AMERICAN
    Miles Nuessle of Liberty 122W-5L
    Tommy Mommer of Cibola 95W-5L *NHSCA ALL-AMERICAN

    2 time State Champs:
    JESSE YBARRA of Sunnyside 68W-3L
    JUAN MANUEL GARCIA-Sunnyside 88W-5L
    Marcus Castillo of Mountain View Marana 79W-2L
    Denen Fernandez of Queen Creek+ 1 runner up 127W-11L *NHSCA ALL-AMERICAN
    Tarik Sutkovic of Ironwood 63W-0L *NHSCA ALL-AMERICAN
    Jonathan Ruiz of Yuma+1 runner up 160W-17L
    Skyler Pike of Camp Verde 79W-4L
    Korben Uhler of Camp Verde 88W-1L
    Ryne Lewis of Pima 99W-1L
    Clayson Goodwin of Benson 114W-8L

    Please comment if I have missed anyone or would like to suggest any honorable mentions.
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2018
    giark65, Wrestlers and matman like this.
  8. Wrestlers

    Wrestlers Active Member

    I agree 100% with Sprawl and applaud his hard work. 4 timers should be first - this feat is easier said than done and any wrestler that wins state 4 years in a row should be commended and recognized as P4P contenders. Followed by 3 timers and 2 timers makes sense.
    SPRAWL likes this.
  9. wm201617

    wm201617 Well-Known Member

    Freak, I forgot about Groves. You are right.
    Sprawl, I dont know who you are but as usual your rankings, comments, and comments are always well thought out, factual based and very hard to argue against. That is a great P4P list.
    SPRAWL likes this.
  10. wrassilin fan

    wrassilin fan Member

    My criteria was season record and quality of guys.

    Gator Groves lost to Denen Fernendez. Jackson Allen lost to Sebastian Mordecai. Diego Guerro Lost to Manny Garcia who lost to Eddie Flores. McKade Finch lost to RBY which is understandable, but also lost to Sal Silva twice, and Nick Carrasco Morenci. Jesse only had one legit title contender, Zack Kvavle. Jonathan Ruiz was PINNED by Malik Jones, Isai Alonso, Tanner Crosby, Jacob Frias, and lost to Zack Kvavle. Skyler Pike lost to Caven Jackson and Manny Garcia. Ryne Lewis best win was over Brandon Garcia and had no other title contenders. Clayson Goodwin lost to Caiden Hall and faced no other title contenders. Tommy Mommer lost to Randy Gonzalez.

    Dawon Andrews' best win was Sheldon Cole, and faced no other true title contenders.
    Manny Garcia lost to Eddie Florez.
    Jesse Ybarra best win was Zack Kvavle and faced no other true title contenders.

    Having a lot of wins to guys who aren't title contenders does not make you P4P or multiple state titles does not make you the P4P. It makes you the best in that weight, in that division. Having good wins over other STATE CHAMPIONS, or title contenders AND not dropping matches makes you P4P best. These guys have beaten the best in the state.

    Tarik Sutkovic will be placed at number 10 because of his undefeated record and his win over D1 State Champ Jonathan Garcia.
  11. wm201617

    wm201617 Well-Known Member

    Ok, if that is your criteria why would you place Torres number 10?
    Torres did NOT beat the D3 state champ. Jackson Allen DID beat the D1 state champ and the D1 runner up.
    So explain how your number 10 Torres should be on list over Jackson Allen using your criteria.
    arizonalove likes this.
  12. acestallion

    acestallion Well-Known Member

    Well guys at the end of the day you have to remember it's his list, his opinions. I've seen people say its no good, but have yet to see another list made. I made one right before state and it had all the same guys on there except 2 were different. I didn't have Jackson Allen on there due to Mordecai loss either; but after state that changes. Overall I like the list, except I would take out Torres and put in Allen. Lists like these are tough to make as there are many deserving kids. So at the end of the day if you don't like it just make your own.
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2018
  13. SPRAWL

    SPRAWL Well-Known Member

    upload_2018-2-12_9-5-12.png upload_2018-2-12_9-6-24.png upload_2018-2-12_9-8-41.png
    According to Rankwrestler by your own criteria Henderson should be above both Torres and Andrews.


    Attached Files:

  14. wrassilin fan

    wrassilin fan Member

    Torres was 59-0 Henderson was 63-0 and Andrews was 38-0. Torres beat 3 state champs this year, including an out of state (Nevada) and Henderson beat 1 state champ. Torres also faced more state placers. Henderson will be above Dawon Andrews. If Dawon were to have beaten say Aaron Gandara, he would be higher, but because we don't truly know who is better at 152, Gandara will be higher since he beat a returning state champ Jacob Garcia.
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2018
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  15. wrassilin fan

    wrassilin fan Member

    Torres has wins over D1 State Champ Medina, D2 Runner up Carey, and beat Mordecai who beat Allen. Mordecai over Allen 6-4. Allen over Torres 3-1 in OT. Torres over Mordecai 8-2. Torres would win this trio due to his larger margain of win. He is taken out of P4P because as everyone said, he did not win state.
    Scoobysnak likes this.
  16. Wrestlers

    Wrestlers Active Member

    Marco Groves: 3X State Champ with 3.9 GPA; freshman year (47-4); sophomore year (62-0); junior (52-0); 145 match win streak; overall record of 186-8. Had issues this year and didn't wrestle at state, but beat D1 160-pound State Champ twice this year. Beat Adam Henderson at the Freshmen NHSCA Nationals (Couldn't beat him now because he is a monster and definitely needs to be high up on your list). Twice 1st Team All-Arizona (Arizona Republic).

    Gator Groves: 4X State Champ with 4.7 GPA; freshman year (52-1); sophomore year (59-2); junior year (53-0); senior year (31-3) with 2 out of state losses and the loss to Denen Fernandez. Overall record of 195-6. In his high school career has wins over Nikolas Manuel, Marcus Castillo and Denen Fernandez (2x). (Probably couldn't beat them now but just saying). Twice 1st Team All-Arizona (Arizona Republic). Going to Harvard to wrestle and most importantly to get a first-class education. There. I have said my piece. And yes I am their mother and thankful their father kept good stats.
  17. SPRAWL

    SPRAWL Well-Known Member

    Henderson beat an undefeated Krump-Valencia D1 Champ and also majored Galvez D2 Champ and Viera D4 runner up. He never gave up over 3 points in a match(to Krump-Valencia and Joe Carey), most of which were FREE escapes. He lead the STATE in pins and never had a close match all season. He's a 3 time Champion and a NHSCA All-American. Torrez had many close matches that he barely squeeked out. Unless I'm missing something I see that he wrestled 2 Arizona State Champs. The out of state win doesn't mean much because it's hard to know their level of competition. Kind of reminds me of a State Champ that transferred into our school when I wrestled, but he couldn't make our varsity line-up. There is absolutely no way you will convince me or many others on this Forum that Torrez would rank higher in P4P no matter what criteria used!

    Maybe I or someone else on here can do a ranking based on a High School career record, career State Championships wins and any other notable accomplishments on the mat.


    The column "3 best" refers to the ranking of the wrestlers 3 best opponents, again Henderson had a slightly tougher level of competition and a better total score. The last post wasn't up to date and Torrez seems to be missing a quarterfinals match @ State.
  18. wrassilin fan

    wrassilin fan Member

    I have much respect for the groves' brothers and all their accomplishments. Gator lost to Denen who is 8th and has other loses. Marco has a lost to Marcos Gamez of Walden Grove, was losing to Luke Jacobs before he forfeited out and didn't wrestle at state so we don't know if he would've won this year anyways.
  19. wrassilin fan

    wrassilin fan Member

    Torres wrestled a much tougher schedule than Henderson. He also had a much harder overall weight this year in which he come out on top overall. You even mention how tough the D3 160 state bracket is and that's not including all the talent that was in 160 this year. He had more quality wins than Henderson and wrestled a much tougher schedule, Red Mtn Duals, Moon Valley Invitational, Las Vegas Holiday Classic, Tim Van Horn Invitational, and Flowing Wells.

    What you missed was the quality of wrestlers in both of their weight classes
    Notable wrestlers at 160 this year:
    Marco Groves 3x State Champ
    Keller Rock 1,3 Fargo All American
    Desmond Bowers, 3rd 2017 1st 2018, Fargo All American, Greco WTT All American
    Cody Lewis 2018 St champ
    Jimmy Deitz 1st, DNP, 1st, 4th
    Robert White 2018 runner up beat Keller Rock twice
    Luke Jacobs state runner up
    Preston Cameu Folkstyle Nationals All American, 3rd St
    Elijah Wyatt 5th at State
    Nikolas Manuel 2017 2nd 2018 1st with win over Ty Ryan who beat Jimmy Deitz
    Nikolas Manuel 2017 2nd 2018 1stwith win over Ty Ryan who beat Jimmy Deitz
    Marcos Gamez 5th at State with win over Marco Groves and Robert White
    Brandon Barreas 5th

    Torres is the best at a weight with 9 state championships total and 4 all American honors. Henderson is the best in the state at 182, but did not have an overall tougher weight than Torres or tougher schedule. Torres beat the two finalists In D1, the D2 Champ, and is the best in arguably the toughest weight in the state this year. Henderson beat the D1 D2 State champ and D4 Runner up. 182 wasn't exactly a killer weight this year.
    Scoobysnak likes this.

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