Proposal: Reduce the State to 3 divisions

Before a True State tournament can be discussed, how about reducing the 4 divisions to 3? The most watered down division would be D4 so why not make it tougher? Some teams ran away with state titles last year so strengthening the rosters for the divisions should create exciting state tournaments. Every division sees the lack of teams being able to fill out their line ups and various D1 schools could barely come up with 5 kids at all. The teams relegation and promotions to the divisions will reflect that. D3 is stacked with close to 100 teams but that doesn't mean that every team will fill out their line up if at all. The same can be said about every other division as well. At the end if this one state tournament really takes off then the AIA can take the top 8 from the 3 divisions and make 24 man state tournament.

 

BDBlue

Well-Known Member
Why this will NOT work...

The Small Schools DO NOT like to wrestle the Big Schools and continually state that it is not fair. I agree with you, there should be less divisions and a lot of the time the small schools DO HAVE individuals that could do somethings nationally and definitely here in the state, however a lot of the time it is the coaches not wanting to compete against better teams and defaulting it to the AIA or the Athletic Directors.

The idea of a ONE TRUE CHAMPION TOURNAMENT is great because it creates a tournament to decide who the best of the best is, however this tournament should NOT ALLOW wrestlers that DID NOT WIN STATE for that year. Otherwise its just another "freestyle" tournament, whats the point?

In today's day and age, the idea of "Participation Ribbons" mean everything.
 
"The Small Schools DO NOT like to wrestle the Big Schools and continually state that it is not fair"

Why does it matter if its not fair? To me it shows that the coaches saying this are not willing to go above and beyond for their kids on a yearly basis. Yes resources are limited but it should be time that the state is finally reduced so the level of competition is tougher which will then have coaches to work harder and strive to get their team as good as possible. School population does not matter, I have seen small D3 schools hand it to D1 schools that have 3000 plus kids compared to like 400 so why does that matter?
 

BDBlue

Well-Known Member
"The Small Schools DO NOT like to wrestle the Big Schools and continually state that it is not fair"

Why does it matter if its not fair? To me it shows that the coaches saying this are not willing to go above and beyond for their kids on a yearly basis. Yes resources are limited but it should be time that the state is finally reduced so the level of competition is tougher which will then have coaches to work harder and strive to get their team as good as possible. School population does not matter, I have seen small D3 schools hand it to D1 schools that have 3000 plus kids compared to like 400 so why does that matter?


EXACTLY! It shouldn't matter. COACH your team and make them more competitive!
 

SPRAWL

Well-Known Member
Just curious, what is the basis for the break down of what team is in what division? Having 40 teams in one division and nearly 100 in another doesn't seem like the best setup. Location, travel time and funding are always an issue when traveling for meets or tournaments. Whats wrong with taking the top 4 placers from each division's state tournament and having a 16 man bracket true state champion tournament placing the top 6 and maybe even a true second?
 

BKramer

Well-Known Member
I have resisted the urge to chime in on these threads about 1 "True" State Champion, reducing the number of divisions, etc...but feel compelled to add my two cents and perhaps a bit of perspective.


First of all - 182pounder - kudos to you for doing some thinking and taking the effort to propose something. I respect that and am certain that your heart is in the right place. I think that can be said for 99% of others that post here. I also understand the desire to reduce the divisions and make state more competitive.


Having acknowledged that, I want you to consider what the sport is really all about: teaching young people the value of hard work and dedication. And it is struggling for participants: In the state of Arizona, there were 4806 male participants in 2002/03 and 4910 in 2017/18 (and quite a bit of variation in the years between)...while the state's population exploded from 5.4 million to 7.1 million in that same time period. As a sport, we are losing ground, except in the area of women's wrestling.


My argument is that reducing the number of divisions will do nothing to encourage participation. I personally do not think it will optimize the thing we want optimized: more kids benefiting from our awesome sport. Some out there have posted that they want competition optimized by a “True State Champion” or a reduced number of divisions but I ask you: whose interest does that serve? Certainly not kids, especially from smaller or more rural schools who have their church activities, 4-H, family, community, and a host of other activities just as important as wrestling. There is more to life than rolling around on a wrestling mat for 90% of the kids who participate in the sport. And please don’t respond with “That helps kids from Arizona get recruited” because we all know that comes from competition at national events. The truth is, optimizing for competition only serves adult interests.


So I ask you: in whose interest are you advocating, that of the roughly 5,000 kids across the state and the sport in general…or your interest in crowning fewer state champions in the interest of “better competition”? I don’t blame anyone for advocating for the latter, but I do ask you to think seriously about the impact that may have on the sport. I am advocating for a balance between the two and as much as I admonish the AIA, I think they have struck it about right with four divisions.


If someone can articulate how reducing the number of divisions or a “1 True State Champion” will lead to greater participation in the sport, I will respectfully consider the argument. Until then, I am of the opinion that 64 kids competing for 4 state championships is about right for the size of our state and in the best interest of everyone combined.
 

FamousLie

Well-Known Member
I think this is a bad idea. The 4 division thing can work, the problem is it's bottom heavy. There's roughly 200 schools that offer wrestling. They should be more evenly divided. Some of the sections have 17 or 18 schools in them, the smaller schools. That just seems stupid.
 

Coachdoerr

Well-Known Member
I think this is a bad idea. The 4 division thing can work, the problem is it's bottom heavy. There's roughly 200 schools that offer wrestling. They should be more evenly divided. Some of the sections have 17 or 18 schools in them, the smaller schools. That just seems stupid.
The divisions are based on enrollment
 

BKramer

Well-Known Member
I think that is the other thing maybe folks are forgetting - that there are teams actually competing for the state title as well. There are numerous high schools with over 3,000 kids enrolled - roughly 1500+ boys to choose from. In many cases, that is over twice as many boys in one school compared to the total number of boys AND girls in other schools. The divisions defined by school enrollment ensures a measure of "fairness" in the competition for a team state title. Bringing home a team state title encourages participation and brings pride to communities in different parts of our state. That pride revitalizes schools and the broader communities in which they exist. Just look at Morenci, Show Low, Camp Verde, Safford and a host of others that makes wrestling for a team state title something worthy for those communities.
 

FamousLie

Well-Known Member
The divisions are based on enrollment

The sections should be more even across the board. Only 39 schools in D1 and almost 60 in D3. They should start at the top and just work their way down. Top 40 are D1, next 40 D2, etc. That way you don't end up with lopsided sections that stretch across the state literally.
 

Hillis

Well-Known Member
I'm flattered by 182 Pounder's vote of confidence of hosting a state tournament at the BFSEC in Fort Defiance. We definately have the room in that arena but hotel accomodations are another matter.
I've been coaching AZ high school since 2004-05. Wrestling has never been consistant in that time. One thing I was for was the bringing the six divisions (that was a joke in itself) back into four, based on school size. That was good while it lasted. Then schools started petitioning to move around, and it was usually to go down. Now we're lopsided.
Why not go to TWO divisions, with 1st-8th placing? No petitioning to move. Just my two cents....
 

Hillis

Well-Known Member
One more thing....in our current state of sectional numbers in Div IV....sections III? (I don't know what the hell section we are...WE'RE ALWAYS CHANGING. We used to be section 1) we would be in a bad fix if we all suddenly got the numbers. Our one day tournament would be too time limited to accommodate the 15 or 16 schools we have in our section.
 

Coachdoerr

Well-Known Member
One more thing....in our current state of sectional numbers in Div IV....sections III? (I don't know what the hell section we are...WE'RE ALWAYS CHANGING. We used to be section 1) we would be in a bad fix if we all suddenly got the numbers. Our one day tournament would be too time limited to accommodate the 15 or 16 schools we have in our section.
We have 16 in our section and it’s one day
 

Ray Miro

Member
The issue for reduced numbers occurs in the transition years of middle school. The NWCA has addressed this over and over and over again. Too much wrestling too soon with too many competition and skill development lacking. When a number of youth matches end in a head lock pin it is mostly about physical development and an abundance of mismatches. Let me know when the head lock becomes a go to move at the NCAA'S or many of the National level tournaments. You can feel free to contact me when that happens.
Being new to Arizona and the level of wrestling, I came away fairly impressed , even with the 4 Division set up. Everyone/most seem to want one more level of in state competition. Simple. Propose an All-state tournament where the top 4 or 6 qualify. The AIA will make money and that will be a plus for them.
We did this back in Massachusetts with 3 Divisional States. It has been a success with good wrestling.
The NWCA has received numerous complaints about the weight classes and the number of. FORFEITS are killing this sport. There isn't a team out there that I have observed that doesn't have at least 1 or 2 wrestlers in the Varsity lineup that really could use a little more seasoning at the JV level. You might disagree with me but that is how I see it. Kids leave the sport because of the constant beat downs and not seeing the light at the end of the tunnel. It's tough enough just going through the daily grind. 10% of our kids know that there will be ups and downs. The other 90% don't understand that the light is just a little further if they stick it out.
A couple of the posters recognize this all encompassing attitude. I would much rather be on a team that has group success than an individual or two here and there. This in no way is saying that I don't appreciate the great individual. But if you interested in building the sport and team you have to be able to connect and convince the other 90%.
Hopefully everyone can figure something out that appeals to all. This isn't about everyone getting a trophy.
 
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