Champs, transfers, guts & heart

[East Valley]

Congrats to the team Champions!

Morenci, Show Low, Mtn View Marana & Corona. Great job on the mat!

I think we need to put the whole “Transfer” thing to rest. Look it’s within the rules! (& all the teams have them) I’m just speaking about D1 & D2 because I’m not as familiar with D3 & D4. We know of those that went to Corona, SS has some, Mtn View Marana has some & Queen Creek has some. Again I have absolutely no problem with this!! To say some teams do this and others don’t is garbage. I guarantee you every one of us would have gladly taken the Seton transfers at our school if we could have!

Parents have the right to do what is best for their children when it comes to school. No one talks about the schools/Coaches that have lost transfers. A few years back Coach Martinez (Corona) lost the Cartegena brothers & Bridger Barker. (I can’t remember the others) Those parents did what they thought was best. So when it works in Corona’s favor no one remembers that. Same with Mtn View (Mesa) they got two transfers in 2014 & 1 more in 2015. (3 total) Those kids gelled with the rest of the team. Mtn View lost out on 4 kids (One moved to Canada) all state placers this year for other AZ teams. (132 – 3rd Place, 138 – 3rd Place HWT – 1st Place) Ironwood Ridge lost two studs that won it with different schools. It happens. Parents have that right.

That being said I believe these schools didn’t win because of transfers. (They helped of course) They won because they had the other pieces in place when transfers were added in. They Gelled together. (Yes Corona Mommas you were right) It doesn’t always work out. We’ve seen that. Corona, SS, Mtn View Marana & QC’s teams also seemed to be wrestling as a team with a purpose. (Something bigger)

Cont......

 

[East Valley]

Cont...

I know I sound like a broken record but more times than not it’s the Big Weights that win it. (Especially when scoring over 200 pts) If you look at the team champions from all divisions the data seems to support that. Taking the placers & points scored from weights 160 & up.

Big Weights

D-4 Morenci had 4 placers & scored 98.5 pts

D-3 Show Low had 4 placers & scored 82.5 pts

D-2 Mtn View Marana 2 placers & scored 25 pts. This is a partial exception. They made up for it by placing high at every one of the lighter weights (106-152) & the team scores were in the 170s.

D1- Corona had 4 placers & scored 77 pts

D1- SS had 1 placer & scored 28 pts.

Everyone loves to say SS is down. I don’t necessarily believe that. They wrestle with a lot of heart! D-1 is tough & even the bottom teams have one or two tough kids. Many times those kids help decide the team championships. The data seems to support that transfers can fill holes but if they don’t gel with a balanced team they won’t win.

 

[bayoubadger]

Well said East Valley. SS upper weights underperformed. That is what cost them the most. What helped CDS the most was not the transfers (albeit they did have a substantial impact) it was the return of their 120 pounder. I had heard conflicting reports that he was injured or that he quit. In either case it says a lot about Coach Martinez as a coach. Either he talked the kid into returning or got him ready on short mat time. Take away the 26 pts scored by CDS at 120, add 4 points to SS for the State Championship at 120 and SS would have won by 7.5 points. Congratulations to CDS on their State Championship.

In a way too early prediction for next year, I think it will be a race between Cibola and SS.

 

[East Valley]

I agree. I'm going through that now & I will post some predictions shortly. It's going to be interesting next year! It's never too early for predictions! Haha

That 120 pounder was impressive to watch. The whole team had to perform for that to happen.

 

[wjd]

DK how you can say 80-100 points moving in isn't what did it for CDS. They'd have been an afterthought without them. Yes, transfers are a way of life now (good or bad). They alone probably aren't going to win a championship, but added to an already good program (look at the last four champions), they can push a team over the edge.

 

[East Valley]

DK how you can say 80-100 points moving in isn't what did it for CDS. They'd have been an afterthought without them. Yes, transfers are a way of life now (good or bad). They alone probably aren't going to win a championship, but added to an already good program (look at the last four champions), they can push a team over the edge.

I totally agree! No one is debating that. Here is what I'm trying to say. Everyone seems to start back 4 years ago when they make this argument. I don't mind the argument it's that they forget about previous years. I'm saying we shouldn't pick & choose what years you look at. (I'm not saying you are wjd) To be fair lets look at the last 10 years D1 & D2. I've gone back & researched the rosters, numbers, placers, transfer, where Jr Highs kids came from ect... (I prefer to leave names out on a public forum as much as possible) I'm not that technical but I love wrestling & I have enough data to kill a buffalo. (No animals were harmed during data collection haha) It should also be noted that I have been a part of the Jr High State seeding (Both Tempe & Tucson) for over 10 years. I know where these kids have gone to school & where they are located.

From what info I have collected & from the friends I have close to many of the programs. What I'm saying is transfers didn't just start happening 4 years ago!! Winning teams have been getting transfers for a long time! It's tough I know. My beloved Toros lost out on 4 kids that could have put them in contention this year but they went to different schools. Parents choice. (A new coach had to use freshman & a soph) So if people have a problem with our current rules then bash the rules. I don't have a problem with transfers because currently it's within the rules. I'm not blaming anyone but my argument is we need to take our homer glasses off sometimes & look at all the schools involved.

It was still a heck of a State Tournament though!!

 

[bayoubadger]

East Valley, I do find it somewhat interesting that this is the year the rule changed to basically allow anyone to transfer and compete as long as they sit out half the season. Short of a hardship waiver those Seaton kids would not have been able to compete because they were going to a private school in the same county as their new school (and presumably did not move). Take the SS situation a few years ago. Under the new rules everything would have been fine and they would not have been stripped of their runner-up finish in 2015. It may just be a coincidence but I do find it interesting.

 

[East Valley]

East Valley, I do find it somewhat interesting that this is the year the rule changed to basically allow anyone to transfer and compete as long as they sit out half the season. Short of a hardship waiver those Seaton kids would not have been able to compete because they were going to a private school in the same county as their new school (and presumably did not move). Take the SS situation a few years ago. Under the new rules everything would have been fine and they would not have been stripped of their runner-up finish in 2015. It may just be a coincidence but I do find it interesting.

I have felt the same way. Interesting is a good word for it!

 

[East Valley]

East Valley, I do find it somewhat interesting that this is the year the rule changed to basically allow anyone to transfer and compete as long as they sit out half the season. Short of a hardship waiver those Seaton kids would not have been able to compete because they were going to a private school in the same county as their new school (and presumably did not move). Take the SS situation a few years ago. Under the new rules everything would have been fine and they would not have been stripped of their runner-up finish in 2015. It may just be a coincidence but I do find it interesting.

bayoubadger I think you bring up some interesting things about the rules. I don't talk about it much but I don't like some of the current rules. I just accept them as part of the game & try to adjust. The changes have been an interesting coincidence. Some do make it hard for teams to build programs from the ground up. On the other side I enjoy that parents can make a choice. I've seen kids stuck in bad situations that hurt them. To me the writing was on the wall when the IR kid transferred at break last year & 10 days later was wrestling with another team. It must have been done within the rules it was just interesting that rule was in place.

There is no doubt that transfers can help teams get over the top & that rule was perfectly timed for Corona. You can also say those kids got the shaft when their coach left & were lucky they didn't have to suffer to move? I have researched the last 12 years D1 & D2 (5A, 4A ect...) just for the purpose of seeing how teams were built & handled transfers. (Move in, move in with uncle or say you moved in with uncle, rent an apartment, say you rented an apartment) Lets just say it's very interesting what you uncover. I don't drink but a lot of my friends do. People tell you all sorts of things when they have had a few in them. Haha I have no desire to get anyone in trouble. I just like to know how the game is played & how people work the rules.

We are talking about two different things. Transfers & the current rules.
1- Transfers are within the rules & many of the winning (& non winning) teams have been doing it for years!!! Yes they are smart about it but it isn't just a recent thing (The last 4 years) & they were all done differently. You can't blame teams for wanting to win. I was a little mad at first but accepted it.
2- The current rules. Now I can go off on those forever! They may give the parents the choice but they can be manipulated. It has always been hard to prevent recruiting. The new rules make it even harder to prevent that.

Closing point. I believe SS had the team to win State! (I'm not picking on the kids they fought their guts out) To me SS is the favorite going into next year. They don't make excuses. I'm sure they will tell you they just didn't get it done. (Like my team in 2013 & 2016) Props to Corona!

 

[MMCLLC]

As a retired HS teacher and wrestling coach, I followed this string of conversations with great interest. Lost in all of this is the question of how all this helps a young man or woman prepare for the real championship of life. Rigor in the classroom is essential to prepare students for whatever lies after graduation: college, trade school, military, job etc; it is a means to and end. Sports, including wrestling, should be no different; it should lead to the same ends.

If as parents and coaches we get wrapped up solely with winning championships, whether individual or team, are we really putting the wrestlers's futures in the forefront? As coaches and parents our most important job is to prepare our kids to be successful in life, not to live vicariously through their athletic pursuits.

Too many times we've seen wrestling stars fall by the wayside because no one prepared them for life after wrestling. Yes, teach them that hard work, sacrifice, commitment are all necessary to become a wrestling champion, but never let them forget that trying to reach the top of the podium is the not end game; it is merely the means to becoming a better, stronger person when it really matters: in the game of life.

 

[bayoubadger]

bayoubadger I think you bring up some interesting things about the rules. I don't talk about it much but I don't like some of the current rules. I just accept them as part of the game & try to adjust. The changes have been an interesting coincidence. Some do make it hard for teams to build programs from the ground up. On the other side I enjoy that parents can make a choice. I've seen kids stuck in bad situations that hurt them. To me the writing was on the wall when the IR kid transferred at break last year & 10 days later was wrestling with another team. It must have been done within the rules it was just interesting that rule was in place.

There is no doubt that transfers can help teams get over the top & that rule was perfectly timed for Corona. You can also say those kids got the shaft when their coach left & were lucky they didn't have to suffer to move? I have researched the last 12 years D1 & D2 (5A, 4A ect...) just for the purpose of seeing how teams were built & handled transfers. (Move in, move in with uncle or say you moved in with uncle, rent an apartment, say you rented an apartment) Lets just say it's very interesting what you uncover. I don't drink but a lot of my friends do. People tell you all sorts of things when they have had a few in them. Haha I have no desire to get anyone in trouble. I just like to know how the game is played & how people work the rules.

We are talking about two different things. Transfers & the current rules.
1- Transfers are within the rules & many of the winning (& non winning) teams have been doing it for years!!! Yes they are smart about it but it isn't just a recent thing (The last 4 years) & they were all done differently. You can't blame teams for wanting to win. I was a little mad at first but accepted it.
2- The current rules. Now I can go off on those forever! They may give the parents the choice but they can be manipulated. It has always been hard to prevent recruiting. The new rules make it even harder to prevent that.

Closing point. I believe SS had the team to win State! (I'm not picking on the kids they fought their guts out) To me SS is the favorite going into next year. They don't make excuses. I'm sure they will tell you they just didn't get it done. (Like my team in 2013 & 2016) Props to Corona!

Very good points. SS knows they just didn't get it done, my kid was one of the then. He knows that and that is just his motivation for next season.

 

[East Valley]

Very good points. SS knows they just didn't get it done, my kid was one of the then. He knows that and that is just his motivation for next season.

I had the same situation with my son a few years back. It hurt & he was embarrassed but it elevated his off season & made all the difference. That motivation is what drives men/women to be great. He's taking responsibility not blaming. That's why your son will be successful on & off the mat!!

 

[East Valley]

As a retired HS teacher and wrestling coach, I followed this string of conversations with great interest. Lost in all of this is the question of how all this helps a young man or woman prepare for the real championship of life. Rigor in the classroom is essential to prepare students for whatever lies after graduation: college, trade school, military, job etc; it is a means to and end. Sports, including wrestling, should be no different; it should lead to the same ends.

If as parents and coaches we get wrapped up solely with winning championships, whether individual or team, are we really putting the wrestlers's futures in the forefront? As coaches and parents our most important job is to prepare our kids to be successful in life, not to live vicariously through their athletic pursuits.

Too many times we've seen wrestling stars fall by the wayside because no one prepared them for life after wrestling. Yes, teach them that hard work, sacrifice, commitment are all necessary to become a wrestling champion, but never let them forget that trying to reach the top of the podium is the not end game; it is merely the means to becoming a better, stronger person when it really matters: in the game of life.

You are right. I've been blessed to be around Coach Callison & now Coach Anderson that talk to their kids about life not just wrestling. One hopes a coach can guide kids in the right directions but they can only do so much. It has to be reinforced at home with the parents. You can tell from how bayoubadger responds that he is parenting his kids right. Looking at the big picture, working hard even if things don't go right, taking responsibility for things. That kind of teaching puts you in control of your life. Life isn't fair & that's not a bad thing. When someone in a kids life lets them use short cuts then long term the kid will pay the price. Life will eat their lunch. I believe how you do anything is how you do everything. You cheat on your taxes you'll cheat on other stuff. You fake an injury to win? Did you really win? Parents & coaches do have a big responsibility. To me winning is fun but only if it's done the right way.