Freshman Phenoms
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wm201617
Well-Known Member
As someone from Show Low I think its great to even be in the conversation with some of the top DI and DII schools.. Its great to be hated.. it means you have reached a certain level. I would say that using the words "hang with" and 'compete with" are a little open to opinion. Also you have to look at it by timeframe. This past year I would say that Show Low could certainly have hung with and competed with anyone in any division. However that is not the same as "beating" some of those top teams. For you doubters why don't you ASK Marana Mtn View if Show low can compete? We probably beat them at their tourney if our 182 doesnt blow out his knew during his match. No excuse, just a fact and we lost to them by 9 points and that was legitimate, no crying here -- And I admit I don't think they were full strength either( nor were we) . However to say that we cant compete or "hang with" top DII schools is wrong. As far as DI schools -- in looking at the top 10 finishers at state in DI I think Showlow HANDILY beat 3 of those teams when we saw them this last year. Again... would you call that competing? Would you call that hanging with? I would. I have not heard ANYONE from Show low or our area say we would have knocked off CDS or Sunnyside. Indeed I would bet that our coaches would and all SL parents would say we probably would NOT have. But I dare say that even CDS and Sunnyside coaches would say we could or would compete with them to the extent of or as much as or MORE than most OTHER DI schools do.
So my point is if you want to say that Show low wouldnt have beaten CDS or Sunnyside or Marana Mnt View then that fine. but to say that we wouldn't have competed with or hung with is not accurate and if there is any insinuation that top D3 and D4 schools cant compete with MANY MANY MANY MANY D1 and D2 schools then that is just plain foolish.
I saw Camp Verde mentioned in one post and am not sure if that was the poster indicating that Show Low couldn't have beat them this last year or compete with them or whatever..... Camp Verde is super strong year in and year out and has been for many years. I know there are years that they also would have competed with any DI and DII school in the state. However, this year Show Low was clearly stronger as Showlow beat Morenci at two different tournaments and St Johns as well.
Show Low and some other D3 teams and ALL of D4 teams have less than 900 students in their entire school. Many D3 teams that ShowLow saw at state and ALL D2 and D1 schools have more than twice or three times their enrollment. Camp Verde, Morenci, St Johns, Showlow, Safford, etc etc etc have a hard time even fielding full teams year in and year out. And YET many years at least one or two or more of those teams mentioned above DO compete with and hang with and BEAT top D1 and D2 teams.
So my point is if you want to say that Show low wouldnt have beaten CDS or Sunnyside or Marana Mnt View then that fine. but to say that we wouldn't have competed with or hung with is not accurate and if there is any insinuation that top D3 and D4 schools cant compete with MANY MANY MANY MANY D1 and D2 schools then that is just plain foolish.
I saw Camp Verde mentioned in one post and am not sure if that was the poster indicating that Show Low couldn't have beat them this last year or compete with them or whatever..... Camp Verde is super strong year in and year out and has been for many years. I know there are years that they also would have competed with any DI and DII school in the state. However, this year Show Low was clearly stronger as Showlow beat Morenci at two different tournaments and St Johns as well.
Show Low and some other D3 teams and ALL of D4 teams have less than 900 students in their entire school. Many D3 teams that ShowLow saw at state and ALL D2 and D1 schools have more than twice or three times their enrollment. Camp Verde, Morenci, St Johns, Showlow, Safford, etc etc etc have a hard time even fielding full teams year in and year out. And YET many years at least one or two or more of those teams mentioned above DO compete with and hang with and BEAT top D1 and D2 teams.
3boys
Well-Known Member
SHOW LOW can hang with any school IMOP...look at the MS...year in year out...SL wins or top3 in the State at MS..where do they go...the High School....so Props to SL..My sons have always had tuf matches against show low..They are a class act. Marana Mt view shared a prvt suite with them at State..., sorry to say until AZ only has 1 state HS championship...there will always be ppl that say who can beat who...Team or individual.
Spike
New Member
D1/ 3 placers
106 Jessie Ybarra/Sunnyside 1st, Chris Kelly/Chandler 2nd
152 Aaron Gandara/Cibola- 2nd
D2/ 6 placers
106 Andres Avelar/South Mountain 2nd,Gabe Ortiz/Mnt View 4th,Christian Geber/Gila Ridge 5th
113 Prado/Shadow Ridge 3rd
138 Lewis Event/Mesquite 5th
145 Kamyn Stonebraker/Liberty 4th
D3/ 5 placers
106 Troy Rameriz/Sunrise Mnt 2nd,Tanner Fellows/Show Low 4th
126 Micho Cordero/Peoria 5th
138 Keller Rock/Chino Valley 1st
145 Matt Stevenson/Thunderbird 4th
D4/ 4 placers
106 Tanner Crosby/St John's 1st
113 Timmy Porter/Mogollon 3rd
126 Korben Uhler/Camp Verde 1st
182 Clayton Goodwin/Benson 1st
D1 -3 state placers
D2 - 6 state placers
D3- 5 state placers
D4- 4 state placers
I think all the kids that step on the mat and compete are all winners. Wrestling is a tough sport so Win or Lose they are better kids because they have the courage to compete.
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John
Member
That was very insensitive but my question is why isn't the D3 and 4 pushing for a California state type championship then we would know where the best wrestlers were. If Arizona wants to build our wrestling reputation so our kids get looked at why not have a mandatory Super State to see who the best really is???
John
Member
Another reason D1 and 2 appear more dominant, The freshman from Benson that did win D4 state every time he faced a D1 182 wrestler he lost. Just by shear numbers the D1 and 2 programs will have more talent.
John
Member
If show low wants competition doesn't the AIA allow the school and the program to move up a division every 2 years?? Seton was doing it and Chaparrel seems to always want to go down to D2.
John
Member
I agree, we do need a 1 state championship for high school. Does anyone know why this hasn't happened? and or why there is resistance to it??
East Valley
Well-Known Member
There are many kids at the small schools that can compete with the big schools!! Until there is one championship & coaches are motivated to have tougher schedules there is really no way of knowing. If I'm at a smaller school (Or any school) I need to build confidence in my kids. I'll schedule accordingly. My boy (D1) had 26 losses in his HS career. 17 were from Reno TOC, The Cheesehead & The Clash. He had lower seeding in every AZ tournament because of the out of state losses. His senior year he places at Reno, does well at the Clash, wins Flowing Wells & State. A kid from a smaller school was named to the all Arizona team instead of him. Do I think my son was better? Sure. Was that kid deserving? You bet he was! (& both are state champs the rest of their lives) My son is fortunate to be wrestling in College there are D3, D2 & D1 kids on his team. (From AZ & Other states)
If they do one AZ Champion I am all over it! Just like any rule changes for the better they want to make. I do however like the way it is because 4 kids will be state champs in each weight each year. (Super State would be fun) Most won't wrestle in college but will always have that to remember. (All of us look back at HS days) Many will coach because of their experience. In College there are different divisions. Community College, NAIA, D3, D2 & D1. I don't want all of those combined into one. (Yes I know it's different) It's still a big deal if you are an NAIA, D3 or D2 All-American. My whole point is you can't compare. Apples & oranges. I love the debate of course & much of it is valid both ways. I love this sport & all the passionate coaches, parents & fans of all the schools! Thanks for your effort!!
If they do one AZ Champion I am all over it! Just like any rule changes for the better they want to make. I do however like the way it is because 4 kids will be state champs in each weight each year. (Super State would be fun) Most won't wrestle in college but will always have that to remember. (All of us look back at HS days) Many will coach because of their experience. In College there are different divisions. Community College, NAIA, D3, D2 & D1. I don't want all of those combined into one. (Yes I know it's different) It's still a big deal if you are an NAIA, D3 or D2 All-American. My whole point is you can't compare. Apples & oranges. I love the debate of course & much of it is valid both ways. I love this sport & all the passionate coaches, parents & fans of all the schools! Thanks for your effort!!
CPATitan
New Member
I remember back in the 90s when there was an AZ All Star meet (NOT sanctioned by AIA) that would feature matches between state champs from different divisions. I think AZ/USAW may have helped put this on back then. The question was (and still would be) whether or not certain state champs would participate when invited or decline for whatever reason. Wonder if something like this may work out at some point?
1 state champ would solve this discussion board but we live in a society that likes to give out more medals. My brother whom never won a title from a d3 school majored a Sunnyside 4x state champ in his senior year at flowing wells. Point is, train to get better not to win a medal. Too many kids move schools divisions and weights just to get a gold rather than just get better.